Just listened to the Podcast on the topic, and was struck by something that was said. It doesn't really have much bearing on the argument itself (Sisko still wins IMHO), but I thought worth mentioning.

The guys were saying how Kirk would always take advice from his two closest friends and colleagues, but I don't think it was pointed out how, in many ways, the two (Spock and Bones) could almost be seen as his conscience, both representing the two aspects of his character - one logical and reasoning, the other rash and impetuous. Kind of like the old trope of an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other.

It's this triumvirate thing that made the dynamics of TOS so real, and was not replicated in any other series. Picard had too many people shouting out their (mostly overly PC) opinions, from the pscychobabblous Troi, the Kirk-not-alike Riker and Mott the barber, right down to Wesley F***ing Crusher. Same with Sisko, although he at least didn't have to contend with Wesley F***ing Crusher, and the balance of opinions was better, and more realistic. Janeway did what the hell she wanted, without the influence of anyone else, and look how that turned out.

They tried it with Archer, T'Pol and Trip, but their big mistake there was that Archer and T'Pol weren't friends and so the dynamic was different again, and didn't quite work.

I just hope the new movie makers remember that, like it or not, Star Trek is not an ensemble piece. I'm not saying it won't work like that, as TNG and DS9 showed it will, bit it's not the essence of TOS, and it's not how Kirk works.

1. Ben Sisko - coz he thought then did. Might not have been exactly right, but he *did*.

2. Picard - "Make it so". Had a lot of babble/blah directed at him but did manage to distill it to "what's the *right* thing to do

3. Kirk - same reasons as many others - the triumvirate

4. Archer - much maligned, but his heart was in the right place. Didn't help to have the Vulcans constantly looking over his shoulder either.

5. not mentioning J.....y

Thanks guys for S3 Ep 1. Great ep. Thanks to whoever talked about "The Inner Light" - Watched it again today. Brilliant!

Best theme? TNG has the Triumphant "We are the Federation" theme to it, and DS9 sounds quite haunting in Seasons 1-3; then turns more Joyous & Triumphant for Seasons 4-7. I do like Voyager's theme - to be fair, it was the only one that gave me goosebumps when you played it on the podcast. TOS's theme, while very different for the 60s, has dated, now. Enterprise theme will date - like the visuals, but the lyrics don't really do it for me.

worf359 wrote:

Best theme? TNG has the Triumphant "We are the Federation" theme to it, and DS9 sounds quite haunting in Seasons 1-3; then turns more Joyous & Triumphant for Seasons 4-7. I do like Voyager's theme - to be fair, it was the only one that gave me goosebumps when you played it on the podcast. TOS's theme, while very different for the 60s, has dated, now. Enterprise theme will date - like the visuals, but the lyrics don't really do it for me.


Welcome to the board worf359 (a fellow Klingon Whoo Hooooo)

I went to The Starfleet Ball in Bournmouth several years ago and they had a soundtrack playing of the full orchestral versions of all the theme tunes. Sounded bloody great, not sure if its available to buy (I've never been able to find it) but its well worth a listen.

For me TOS theme is the best, still get tingles when I hear it.

Yeah, TOS for me too. It makes me beam every time I hear it - which is a lot. I also really like the TAS theme: it's like TOS but more Saturday morning!

I love both the TNG and DS9 themes, they suit their respective programmes. The subtle updates to the themes work really well too.

As the TNG theme is basically the TMP theme, I'm going to give a shout out to the WoK theme. We watched it for the bajillionth time the other night, and the music is still just as beautiful as ever.

I'm not keen on the Voyager theme. It's a lovely piece of music, but it's nothing like the show. It's all peaceful and full of wonderment, whereas the show is pretty much "let's kill everything with as much technobabble as possible".

I have to confess to loving the Enterprise theme. It's one of those "over-emote, wave your arms in the air" songs that I love to sing with fellow geeks when drunk. The updated version is dumb though.

See, I liked the Enterprise theme as well (not to the extent of your flatmate, though, Matt). It had an epic feel which, when matched with the visuals of the opening sequence, did indeed bring a lump to the throat. Courage of the human spirit and all that.

TNG's may just have been the TMP theme, but had a grandiose feel to it. DS9's is difficult to listen to out of context, but fitted the series perfectly, both before and after it got busy. Voyager's is as bland as the show it preceded.

TOS? Iconic, yes, but I never saw the fuss... until the end of last year's movie, which actually had me tearing up.

I'm another who likes the Enterprise theme, in fact I liked the vocal version as well. For ages I thought it was Rod Stewart for some reason?

Janeway: She did lead her ship through some remarkable achievements. No other captain can claim to have been turned into a newt, survive numerous retcons, defeated a Borg nest, fought an alien race tougher than the Borg, fought dinosaurs, endured Neelix, etc.

She went through a hell of a lot as Captain, surely she deserves some kudos for that?

igniz wrote:

Janeway: ......endured Neelix, etc.

She went through a hell of a lot as Captain, surely she deserves some kudos for that?

I take your Neelix and raise you Picard/Wesley Crusher.

igniz wrote:
Janeway: She did lead her ship through some remarkable achievements. No other captain can claim to have been turned into a newt, survive numerous retcons, defeated a Borg nest, fought an alien race tougher than the Borg, fought dinosaurs, endured Neelix, etc.

She went through a hell of a lot as Captain, surely she deserves some kudos for that?

That was just proof that the universe itself reacted against her shitness.

Janeway. The first women captain, a strong female lead. A revolution in the Star Trek world. And she lost her ship in the first episode.

Even in the 24th century, women are bad drivers.